After reading DuBey's comments I come away confused as it would seem that actions are contradicting the words. There is an old axiom; "When words and actions tell a different tale, believe action."
"The fact that you disagree with the Catholic Church and her teachings does not make the Church "hateful," it makes YOU hateful, for wrongly attacking the Church and her freedom of speech and of belief. I have never heard a bishop calling homosexuals “hateful!” YOU don’t even want to allow others the freedom to suggest that you might be wrong or mistaken or misguided."
The fact is that we are being murdered, world wide, in the name of your God, and admittedly Allah. That the interpretations of your holy scriptures by those who lead your church seek to deny us life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness speak to us in ways that your words do not. For years, we as LBGT types, were labeled as perverts, we are labeled individually as a “corrupter of morals.” We have been labeled as being "More dangerous that Islamic terrorists as we seek to disrupt the morals of the young." We are called pedophiles and rapists, “Recruiters and exploiters of youth and innocence.” I would suggest that the actus
I have never heard of LBGT types attacking and killing others for being Christian and Catholic, yet the incidence of murders, deemed excusable by the authorities of areas under the heavy influence of the Roman Catholic Church tells me that to you believe we are expendable and beyond redemption. The fact that this type of violence is on the increase tells me exactly what the church is teaching their congregations. You cast us out of your churches, families, jobs and hang untenable conditions upon us. How then are suppose to view you? Are we to assume that you love us and “hate our sins” when your actions show us that you hate us with extreme prejudice to the point of denying us our humanity and any possibility of being a child of God? I thought that judgment and revenge were prerogatives that God has held unto himself!
You call us "hateful, yet at the same time, you refuse to see the fear, hatred and on-going violence that you have always directed toward us that simply can not be what you demand of us. To me, this is just another self righteous example of the bigoted, egotistical, self-righteousness that has plagued us for millennium. No we are not hateful - we are rightfully terrified by the violence, non-acceptance, exclusion and discrimination that you, and others like you have inflicted on us our entire lives. Is it wrong to attempt to protect ourselves under the same Constitutional rights that you claim yet have been blatantly denying us from the beginning? Why is it that we live in a nation that lists religious freedom, yet we find ourselves being bound and gagged by your religious tenets and morals that you have decided must be a part of the law? I should also note here that I have heard so many people decry the apathy and tacit support that the moderate Islamic people are giving their terrorist fanatics by their failure to denounce their actions. At the same time, as I see violence against LBGT types increase, and not a single Christian leader condemning the actions of those who are teaching hatred and engendering fears leading to violence against us. In this, for these people to demand a statement of disavowal of the actions of their terrorist are exactly the same as those in moderate Islam. They are tacitly no better. All I can assume is that mainstream Christian fundamentalism is becoming another extremist terrorist group bent on the extinction of those who can not ore will not by decree of conscience go along with their madness. What do you intend? Do you want to have the United States become just as bad as Iraq was under the Ayatollahs?
As far as calling us; “…wrong or mistaken or misguided.” Is this just another case of someone projecting their own limitations onto us as a group? It would seem to me that we are all such terrible sinners that we must leave judgment to God. In this, I must also state that the Pope falls under the same injunction. He is after all human and subject to the same frailties as everyone else, with one important difference. In his case one must also look at this aspect of his position. “Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.” We must also keep in mind that “…the pathway to hell is littered with good intention…” While we are at it, we must also take a good look at all of the Evangelical, Charismatic, Fundamentalist leaders and discern if they are teach a doctrine of grace and love, or a doctrine of demons, i.e. a doctrine of hatred. The Bible warns us about in the later days there will be those who have a form of godliness, yet deny the power thereof. I would suggest a visit to 1Timothy 4, and 2 Timothy 3 and take a good look at what the churches preach and what their philosophies engender, remembering that God can use all things for the good of those who love Him, as spoken of in Romans 8:28.
"Incidentally, your arguments are very deflated by the fact that the Catholic Church (and most Christians) EQUALLY discourage heterosexual promiscuity, as they discourage homosexual promiscuity. Statistics will show that the "gay" lifestyle is rarely associated with faithful partnership for LIFE, but rather with a promiscuous "party" lifestyle. It is not the recipe for happiness for any human being, or for children. Chaste homosexuals are welcomed by the Churches as much as chaste heterosexuals are. Promiscuous heterosexuals are condemned just as much as promiscuous homosexuals are condemned. Promiscuity is equally sinful and damaging to society in either context, heterosexual or homosexual."
You assume, based on the beliefs of the religious tenets of a minority of the world's population, and not even universally held by all who wear the mantle of Christianity, that what you believe and preach must be the natural order of things - and that only those things that you approve of have any validity in the world. You routinely deny what is clearly in front of your own eyes - to the point of being in culpable denial of reality. If you and your religious tenets can not stand up to science and empirical observation, then I would suggest that to demand that everyone else follow your beliefs is nothing more than an insistence that we bow to your superstitions. Faith is the belief in things unseen, and just because you believe in something does not grant you the license to demand that we all bow to your beliefs.
All that you have going for you is a very well conditioned conscience that was instilled in you before you achieved the age of reason. If then your beliefs are not universal within the human family, then how can you sit there and say that we are being "hateful" for denying to bow to the demands that you so ardently defend with irrational arguments on the order of "everybody knows," or "because" which historically means that "what everybody" or on a basis of "because" knows is mere tautology and has no basis in fact?
As far as the "homosexual lifestyle" not being the basis for sound and enduring relationships, then how do you justify the high rates of casual illegitimacy, divorce - yes, even among Roman Catholics, adultery and fornication go, how can you claim moral superiority? It would seem to me that before one can defend the moral high ground they must first occupy it. The vast majority of the individuals in the congregations of the mainstream
You speak of us falling into sinful ways, when the very discrimination that you inflict on us is the very reason why so many of us simply can not form stable relationships. How can self-fulfilling prophecy be in any way valid as it occurs by the premeditation of a group and in no way by the hand of God? Isn't the fact that you are causing the very instability in so many lives pertinent to the discussion here? It would seem to me that one must take the stand in response to your beliefs that “they who are without sin cast the first stone.” It has been my observation that gays, lesbians and transgendered come that way from the womb. However, I have seen that Christians recruit, and generally do so from the ranks of those who have lived lives that were extremely shameful to themselves. Having become “saved by grace,” they now project their own failings off onto others and judge accordingly to their own understanding. Hateful? Is it hateful to despise hypocrisy and refuse to go along with it?
Also, with regard to the use of the word statistics, I would like to point out a statement from the great American Author, Samuel Clemens, “There are three types of lies - lies, damned lies and statistics.” Can you please show me the statistics and the methodology by which the values were extracted - and the demographics from which the data was garnered?
“Finally, heterosexual marriage enjoys special privilege in society and in religion because that is the way society perpetrates itself through sacrificial nurturing of children by two parents of two sexes, who are committed to the family for life -- ensuring children a stable and nurturing existence.”
I’m sorry, but on what do you base this statement? Seeing that everyone I have ever met is a cracked or broken pot in some manner, your assertion here is again nothing more than elitist tautology. In much of the world a man may have many wives, and in total, they outnumber you significantly. A stable and nurturing environment only comes in when there is love and security within the family unit. The very fact that almost every homosexual or transgendered person comes from a traditional, “normal” heterosexual family gives your assertion the smell of a rabid lie. To insist that we take you at your word is simply beyond reasonable expectations considering the historical abuses that churches of every religion and denomination have inflicted on humanity. I would like to call the Incas, Mayans, and Aztecs in to express their opinions about the tender mercies of the church in ages past. Also, with the terrible denial and unequal treatment that we have received at your hands in what is supposed to be country with freedom of religion gives us fear that you will use this movement to further inflict injustice and suffering upon us.
“Homosexual associations do not participate in this process of procreation, they do not offer children parental role models for both sexes. They also do not have the track record for success that heterosexual unions have, and are thus not entitled to the special status, respect and privileges that heterosexual marriages enjoy. You might note that the Catholic Church does not condone divorce for the same reason – the well-being of the family and children --- but rather offers numerous mechanisms for REPAIRING marriages rather than dissolving them. So opposition to homosexual marriage is not a hateful position, but a logical one. Some titles and positions in our society must be earned and are not distributed to anyone who asks, regardless of qualification.”
We live in a culture where we have too many unwanted babies already. We have a very large foster care system that is daily destroying young lives - which many are in because of divorce and abandonment by those who attended churches. We have deadbeat parents who take off and forget to pay things like alimony and child care, which requires some to make whatever alliances they can to insure a healthy and nurturing environment for the children that they are having to raise. Despite the position of the church in these matters, we still have rampant divorce, even within the church itself. How can “repairing” a marriage, which can rarely be more than keeping a couple together in a dysfunctional and unhealthy environment, be in any way superior to a child growing up in a family that has same sex spouses and is loving and nurturing? But then again, I have also heard men of God preach that a woman may not leave her husband except by reason of adultery. So what if he is beating her with ever increasing brutality and will some day murder her?
As far as your assertion: “So opposition to homosexual marriage is not a hateful position, but a logical one.” Is it dark in here - or are you simply blinded by your own perceptions, believing them to be valid across the board and the only way that things can possibly be? Also I question your invocation of “logic” as this is one term that has absolutely no absolute value! The first thing that one learns in the study of philosophy and religious tenets is that in the end all logic boils down to mere tautology which can be dismissed by other ideologies with equal or of greater validity. Philosophy is what most religious tenets ultimately boil down to, despite the fact that they are attributed to being the divine word of god – “...but only as we interpret them...” in way too many cases.
Please do not call us hateful when in this battle our side is taking all of the casualties. How dare you call us hateful when it is you, and those like you, who are inflaming the sociopaths to do us murder in the name of God! I do not see my response here as being, in any way, hateful. I see this as nothing more than taking a bully to task for their antisocial behavior.
By the way. To set the record straight, I am not gay - I am a transsexual. This is not a form of homosexuality, although some of us are. Even so, this has nothing to do with who I go to bed with. It has everything to do with who I go to bed AS! Even so, my experiences have very much paralleled those of the average gay or lesbian as we too, as a group, fall under the same denial of humanity as they do. You will only listen to each other, and being essentially weak in your individual faiths, preferring to do a pick and choose of scripture to dismiss us and our humanity, granting yourselves the self-perceived right to trample all over our lives and our freedoms with complete impunity. It is for this reason why we need laws to protect us that spell out specifically who is being protected or you use your scripture as a headsman's axe as your religion has done so many times in the past. We have been denied equal protections under the law to the point of being specifically written out thing like the Americans With Disabilities Act, despite the fact that our condition is listed in the DSM as being both disabling and potentially lethal. So why the discrimination? Are you so weak in your faith that you believe that God needs your protection? Do you deny God's abilities and powers? If this is the case, the why do you worship him? If He needs your help, then He is either fictional or impotent and unworthy of being worship. From my perspective your God is too small for me. I prefer my God who sent His one and Only Son, the whomsoever will believe in him will not perish, but have everlasting life. (Remember this famous passage from the Book of John?) Could it be that your faith has devolved into a worship of your own perceived purity and self righteousness at the altar of your won misinterpretations of scripture? Remember what the Bible says on this? Who is righteous? No one. Our righteousness is deem as filthy rags
As far as the populaces voting down gay rights to marriage, this does not surprise me at all considering the amount of money your side has poured into the issue and the way that your proponents have used bald-faced lies and distortions of the truth to scare the average individual into taking your side. Now lets see…The Bible did say that Satan was the father of all lies. Does this mean that those who support the ban on gay or same sex marriage are satanic in nature? After all, one is known by their fruit... BTW...Prohibition was voted in on the strength of religious doctrine. Look at the disaster that it created. Why do we continue to repeat history in the area of religious legislation? There were extremely good reasons why our founding fathers of this nation required that religious protections be included in the law of the land to the point of making this right the first thing to be added to the Bill of Rights. They had come from nations where religion became too powerful of a force and what it had cost people. They did not want to see this happen to them and their descendants.
Go ahead and call us hateful, but please remember that every time you point a finger at us, there will be many more pointing back at you. Do I hate you? No I do not. Although you, and your self righteousness, sicken me as you do great evil in the name of your own perceptions of God and deny all culpability for the injury that you abet and inflict through a gross indifference to human life. Your Manhattan Declaration is nothing more than a declaration of pogrom to purge and destroy those who do not live up to your expectations and demands that we believe as you do. To basically use social disobedience to overturn laws and allow you the full freedom you have usurped to continue to persecute us in the name of God. Pardon me if I find you very difficult to love with your double standards, hypocrisy and eugenically inspired bigotry. I would have to say that Satan chuckles when he sees writing such as yours - as they do his work much more efficiently than he ever could!